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Author Topic: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?  (Read 51604 times)

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Jafaelo

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #75 on: December 24, 2015, 01:31:19 am »
I've tried everything, man.  My main is mid-range paladin, and it has my highest winrate at like a dead even 50%.  Last night I played a few Rogue games and got a little win streak going, so I'm actually considering saying "fuck it" and going rogue.  It's the hardest class to play, and nearly every game I make a noticeable misplay somehow, but when someone really knows rogue, they are a tough competitor.

You did really nail the RNG aspect of hearthstone.  In wow you can eventually outgear it enough to overcome bad RNG, in hearthstone it's an even playing field every match, but with practice and time you know the possible outcomes.  There is randomness that can turn a game out of nowhere.  Those big moments of game changing RNG are important because they keep the game exciting and keep you on your toes, but in reality they aren't that frequent.  It's amazing how predictable most of the games are.  I can't count the number of secret paladins who had Piloted Shredder on turn 4, Mysterious Challenger on turn 6, Dr. Boom on turn 7, and Tirion on turn 8.  Having all those amazing cards on the right turns is like having a straight flush in poker, yet it happens all the time.

CliK

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2015, 09:30:36 am »
I feel like Hearthstone has as much RNG as raiding in WoW, it just happens that each game ends rather than being able to fight the boss again as is the case in an RNG-caused wipe. Usually the RNG goes pretty even within the game itself or at the very least over the course of a few games. Arena is pretty much the only place in Hearthstone (outside of tournaments) that RNG can fuck you hard and fast since 3 total losses and you're done; so 3 RNG losses (or really 2 plus an RNG+misplay loss) can kick ya right in the nads. But it's free (if you want it to be) and even with 0 wins you still get a pack. Does it suck? Yeah, every loss sucks. But it doesn't suck any worse than wiping for an hour on Socrethar :P
When it comes to constructed (so ranked and tournaments) it's much much less about RNG and far more about planning (and sometimes the plan is 'hope to get lucky'). Usually the people who are constantly whining about RNG in constructed are either playing less-than-great decks or don't know enough about the decks they're playing against to be able to play against them properly (like going up against Velhari using the strategy from Zakuun, or just no strat at all).

I disagree. Wow isn't entirely based on RNG like hearthstone is. Think about it. From the very get go, you succumbing to RNGesus. Did you get the right cards on the draw? Did you opponent? Did you get the right card on the draw, did your opponent? The only parts of hearthstone that you actually control, is what card you play and who do you attack. And even that is based solely on whether or not rng was nice and gave you something you could do. Really there are only very few fights in wow that rng truely plays a part. Zakuun and Archimonde, mostly with the pillars one both. Everything else is predictable and you can plan for. Kind of hard to plan for something in hearthstone when you don't know what cards you've been dealt.

The tagline for hearthstone should be: Hearthstone: the game where rng determines your fate.

Zarniwoop

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #77 on: December 25, 2015, 12:06:28 am »
You only have 30 total cards in a deck and usually only 15-20 unique cards, so getting the right cards at the start and drawing into cards that you can play later on is a really really high likelihood. Not getting an early (turn 1, 2, or 3) drop is like Soc targeting melee with every charge in an evenly split comp; it just doesn't happen often enough to make an impact outside of that one game. Hearthstone is all about strategizing around the uncommon but impactful RNG that exists. In that respect, it's quite a bit like WoW.
Example: Hearthstone has a lot of 'do I play card X now for a better shortterm outcome or hold onto it for the greedier play that will be better in the long run?' That choice is massive as going for the greedy play can end up leaving you too far behind to catch up while the quicker play can turn sour if your opponent has a good response.
WoW, esp as heals, has times of 'do I use a big cooldown now when it is good but we could recover without it barring further problems or do I wait and rely on (or hope) my team to keep things smooth while we heal thru this current damage?'
The major difference I see is that with WoW each attempt on a boss RNG becomes a little bit less of a factor via strengthening teamwork. In Hearthstone each game is brand new and unique - a fresh fight on a new boss with no teammates to help you out. Sure you may have an idea of what threats the 'boss' can throw at you, you haven't faced this one before and you can't be certain what's coming.
If you don't like Hearthstone, that's cool. There are tons of games I don't like that are way more popular. But it's not an RNG-based game. It's a strategy game with important RNG elements that you have to incorporate into your in-the-moment risk/reward calculations. And frankly, I feel like every good game should have certain 'fuck you' elements that are uncontrollable but fair over the long run.
Oh, and an important point that Jordan made to me: Hearthstone is not a one vs one game. It's a you vs everyone game that you play one person at a time.
Ugh, I'm all scuttled out!

CliK

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #78 on: December 26, 2015, 02:22:02 pm »
Still don't agree. Just don't really know how you can say hearthstone isn't pretty rng based.

Zarniwoop

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2015, 08:17:36 pm »
Because it simply isn't. A raid fight in WoW is heavily effected by RNG and if the player doesn't react to the RNG then bad shit happens and you're far more likely to lose. But raiding in WoW isn't about the individual fight. It's about progression and the raid as a whole.
Hearthstone is the same way just minus the team element. It's not about the individual games that are effected by RNG. It's about reacting to the RNG in the game to give yourself the best chance of winning; but mostly it's about learning, adapting, and bringing your best to the fight with each deck you have. It's about progression (ie rank) and a well rounded arsenal.
Because of the shorter nature of each game every instance of RNG is simultaneously both more impactful and less important than it is in a game like WoW: RNG can make a game tough to win and, on rare occasion, completely lose a game for you, but once that's game's over, that RNG no longer matters. To reach and sustain pro levels you'd be playing hundreds of games, so one nasty loss caused by RNG simply doesn't matter.
And frankly, you can combat almost all RNG simply by knowing it's a possibility. A lot of times the "RNG" that causes a loss is simply the most likely play: If a control Warlock has drawn 12 cards of his 30 card deck, it's pretty likely that he's got Hellfire or at the very least a Shadowflame combo, so flooding the board probably isn't wise. Things like that. Hoping to win by hoping your opponent doesn't have the card/combo he's 70%+ likely to have isn't a loss-by-RNG... It's a desperate/bad/risky play. And if that play was your only way to win, then maybe you just need to rethink your overall strategy against your opponent's deck for future games.
Ugh, I'm all scuttled out!

CliK

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #80 on: December 26, 2015, 09:53:03 pm »
I don't see what you are saying. Raiding is wow is not very rng based. You know exactly what the fight is going to do. You have timers to tell you when an ability is coming, and you know exactly what every ability does and typically for how hard it even hits. The only rng most fight have, is putting an ability on someone. Even those you typically now who the are going on. Ranged, melee, a tank, or a mix of those. But again, you know it's coming and can completely control the fight. Most fights in wow we control the strategy almost completely, and don't have to adjust based on what is happening. Like I said, the only true rng in a fight is something like a pillar placement. That is truely random. If wow was completely rng based, raid leading would be a nightmare, hell raiding in general would be crazy. A lot of people (like myself) would probably not play.

You can't plan for a card to come in hearthstone. You can know what the odds are but you can't truely control what is going to happen. So then you have to adjust your strategy on the fly based on what is happening with the cards you and your opponent are dealt.

Jafaelo

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #81 on: December 27, 2015, 12:27:50 am »
No offense, but you are speaking like someone who doesn't play hearthstone.  We are telling you that you CAN predict what cards are coming, with remarkable accuracy.  It's not about 2 decks throwing cards at each other, it's about knowing the meta game, knowing the decks you will be facing, knowing how to mulligan, etc.

For example, paladin has a card called Muster for Battle that summons 3 dudes with 1 health and gives you a 1 attack weapon.  If you are playing paladin and you go up against a rogue, it is a very safe assumption that he will mulligan his hand for Fan of Knives, which is a card that deals 1 damage to all his opponents minions.  Muster for Battle on turn 3 is a very strong play against a mage or a priest, but against a rogue you have to realize that the odds are very likely that he has Fan of Knives.  And I'm telling you, MOST times he will.  In fact the likelihood of him having it is so great, that the standard accepted strategy is to avoid playing into it.  So in the end, it doesn't matter if he has it or not, the strategy is the same.

How easy would Socrethar be if we knew, every time, where the portals would spawn, where the casters would come from, who would get the gifts, etc.  Every fight in WOW has RNG elements, and we learn to play around it.  The same is true in Hearthstone.  Neither of them is totally RNG based. 

CliK

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2015, 09:33:53 am »
How easy would Socrethar be if we knew, every time, where the portals would spawn, where the casters would come from, who would get the gifts, etc.  Every fight in WOW has RNG elements, and we learn to play around it.  The same is true in Hearthstone.  Neither of them is totally RNG based. 

You can predict where the portals are though....the red portal spawns in one of two spots...the other two in one of four. Again, predictable. Not truly random like say a pillar on Zakuun or archimonde.

Jafaelo

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #83 on: December 27, 2015, 05:54:10 pm »
Right.  Exactly like the majority of hearthstone.

CliK

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #84 on: December 27, 2015, 09:10:31 pm »
Right.  Exactly like the majority of hearthstone.

No. Because you can't predict what card you are going to get. If you could do that, maybe you should be playing poker or something in Vegas.

Jafaelo

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #85 on: December 27, 2015, 11:03:25 pm »
Alright man, whatever.  I don't know why 1 in 4 spawn points isn't considered random but 1 in X number of remaining cards is.  Keep believing what you want.

Dulzun

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #86 on: December 28, 2015, 06:38:33 am »
No. Because you can't predict what card you are going to get. If you could do that, maybe you should be playing poker or something in Vegas.

Poker is a bad comparison since it's 52 unique cards where as in Hearthstone you can affect the RNG with how you build your deck. You know what you put in the deck, you know how many of each card/type you've put in, and you know how many of each type of card you put in therefore you can have a large impact on what cards you receive. You can have a reasonable assumption that if you put in 4 copies on x card you have pretty good chance you'll get at least one in your opening hand or at the very least in first few pulls. But beyond that when you build you do it so that every card has a purpose in your hand. With poker you'll just flat out get cards that you don't need and don't work with the cards that you've got, but with Hearthstone (or Magic since that's what I'm more familiar with) you know that the next card will most likely be something you can use and with as few cards in your deck you have a good idea what card will come up next.

So in my mind there's RNG in both games but I at least feel like I can have an impact on what cards are going to come up in my opening/first pulls but in the soc fight we have no control where the portals spawn but the fact that they spawn is just a predictable as knowing that you'll get x card in your opening hand.

To venture way out of my comfort zone and offer a football metaphor, specific teams will run specific plays and you might not know what play a team is going to run with 100% certainty but if you know the team/players/coach you probably have a pretty good idea what play they'll run to start off with but you won't be 100% right every time. That's where the metaphor ends. It's the same with predicting the cards in hearthstone. You won't be right 100% of the time but you have pretty good idea.

I'll go run and hide before anyone lays some football truth on me.

CliK

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2015, 08:04:41 am »
Yes, I get it. Both games have rng based elements. But my point is, in wow it is completely predictable and controlled. Most wipes in wow are caused by a decision (or lack of one) than the actual rng element.

My point in hearthstone is yes, you might have an idea what card you may get or what card your oppontent may have but ultimately you still don't know. It still come down to the rng of the card draw in it you get what you want/need or don't you. You might have an educated guess, but nothing is certain. I feel like that has a larger outcome on the game than in wow.

Zarniwoop

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2015, 08:14:22 pm »
Yes, I get it. Both games have rng based elements. But my point is, in wow it is completely predictable and controlled. Most wipes in wow are caused by a decision (or lack of one) than the actual rng element.

My point in hearthstone is yes, you might have an idea what card you may get or what card your oppontent may have but ultimately you still don't know. It still come down to the rng of the card draw in it you get what you want/need or don't you. You might have an educated guess, but nothing is certain. I feel like that has a larger outcome on the game than in wow.

Most losses in Hearthstone are caused by a decision, often between the risky play that can backfire due to "bad" rng or the safer play that can backfire against due to a better skilled opponent or a misread on the deck you're up against. And as I said before, and Jafa eluded to as well, the "bad" rng is most often simply the likely play. It's very very rare for your opponent to draw the perfect card on the turn he needs to use it; he usually has the card long before then. If all your opponent needs is a board clear or taunt to counter your aggressive play then there's a rather high chance you'll be countered. The chances of a 'perfect draw' counter are 2/30 usually (since if a card is so good as to be a 'perfect counter' it's probably going to be in the deck twice). The chances of a taunt or board clear in a non-aggro deck are probably closer to 10/30 on the low end and 20+/30 against true control decks. And with each draw the chance gets higher that your opponent will have that answer. Plus take into account the mulligan and your opponent's skill and the chances continue to increase at higher skills thus decreasing the rng. I mean, if I'm facing a hunter I will always keep a board clear even if it might turn out to be a midrange hunter simply because aggro hunter is the most common and generally successful type.
I really don't know where you're getting your information on the effects of RNG in Hearthstone because it's quite skewed.

As for WoW rng vs Hearthstone rng, they're not really directly comparable on a larger scale. WoW raiding is meant as a test of how well you can play a spec and follow specific mechanics. Hearthstone is about executing a strategy, but in order to do that you need to know what you're up against which changes every game. But at the same time, on a very micro level they have similarities since RNG within a boss fight can significantly alter the flow of the fight just as it can alter the tempo of a HS game. There were plenty of times on Soc where we wiped to the RNG of a charge on melee or gifts on 'unlucky' targets, but since the fight never changes except for who gets targetted, we could practice and quickly adapt to even the unlucky rng elements, esp as we began to get better gear. There's no better gear to get in Hearthstone between expac releases. There's no repeat matches against the same person with the same deck and the same plays on the same turn; even if that person has the same exact cards in had on the same turns as a previous game, they'll probably play them different in order to give themselves a better chance at winning.
Ugh, I'm all scuttled out!

CliK

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Re: A couple of youse play Hearthstone, right?
« Reply #89 on: December 29, 2015, 04:45:47 am »
You can't execute a strat or try for a risky okay if you don't have the cards. And you don't know for certain what card is coming up in the deck, so you can't try for something there either.

You have to remember, myself and a lot of others don't have these super awesome decks that will always work, so for us rng is a lot bigger of an issue.

We necer wiped to a charge on melee btw, so I'm not sure where that is coming about.

 

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